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[0:00] Please note, I have started the recording. Last week I started it 33 minutes in. Actually, that was only about a third of the way through.

[0:15] ! I'd be right in saying that, that the rapture is that snatching away of the church at some point during the last seven years would be the broadest way to put it.

[0:42] My belief is before the last seven years starts, some people think it's in the middle, some people think it's near the end or three quarters of the way through.

[0:52] There are lots of different conclusions, but the one thing that virtually every Christian, apart from amillennialists, seems to be agreed upon is it's that time when Jesus comes and snatches away the church and takes the church away effectively for the wedding feast.

[1:14] And the wedding feast comes kind of after we've been with the Lord a while, but it's the beginning of that process. And so God has a plan that his church will be taken to be with him in the air.

[1:30] We looked at lots of differences because lots of people get confused because they mix up second coming scriptures with rapture scriptures.

[1:40] And it's very clear from the scripture that the stuff to do with the second coming is all about Jews.

[1:50] And it's all about what God is doing with Israel in the end times and the various things that they are told to expect. The church, as we read in 1 Corinthians 15 verses 50 to 58, the church is not expected to look out for these signs.

[2:09] So the wars, rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences, pray that it be not on the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day doesn't actually matter to a Christian, but it does matter to a Jew.

[2:22] So it's very clear that there are these two groups of people that the scripture talks about, and you can't mix the two groups. You're either in one group, which is the church, or you're in another group, which is the Jews, or you're in a third group, which is just other unbelievers.

[2:39] So I assume that we're all agreed on that. It's also a time, in terms of the rapture, it's a time of resurrection where God takes those who were alive on the earth at the time, but he also brings back to life all the saints that have died previously.

[3:02] And we have a glorious reunion in his presence, and it involves a lot of resurrection. But in terms of the Jews, it involves judgment for the period of time that they have been rebellious, and it culminates in a time when all remaining Jews, after all is said and done, the remnant that is left will be entirely made up of believers.

[3:34] Hence, it will be true, what the Bible says, that all Israel will be saved. So, all agreed so far? So what I'm going to try to...

[3:45] You're not agreed so far. No, I'm not agreed so far, but carry on, I'm not going to interrupt. Questions at the end.

[3:56] Questions on a postcard, even better. What I'm going to try to do tonight is simply establish, or start to establish, because it's going to take more than one session, why I believe, Joe believes, and actually the majority of people in this room believe, that the rapture of the church is before the tribulation starts.

[4:19] It's a pre-tribulation rapture. The other views we will deal with, whether I'll deal with every view in the world, I am not sure, but I'll deal with the main ones, which is mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and there's another one called partial rapture, which is a weird one, but we'll deal with it anyway.

[4:38] Partial rapture is where they believe that when the rapture happens, it'll be just a select... The good boys will be raptured, and the rest will be kind of left in a Protestant purgatory on Earth.

[4:53] Sorry, that's unfair of me to express it like that, but that's my take on it. What they think will happen creates this time on Earth when those of us who didn't do very well will get a smack on the wrist and get left behind to get better before we're finally raptured.

[5:10] So it's a bit strange. Sort of, yeah. It's very Jehovah's Witness-esque. So, why pre-trib?

[5:25] You see that... Of course, you can't see, because Sharon did tell me that I should pull this out so that people can see it. And you still can't see it, but you can look later.

[5:39] So this chart, and I'll stand up while I do this. This chart shows a pre-tribulation view, which is that we come to the end of the church age, so the church age is here.

[5:54] One other thing we agreed last time is that the rapture and the second coming cannot be that far away, because the way the Earth is going down the pan, Jesus has to come back soon.

[6:08] Or as one, I think it was Billy Graham said, if he doesn't come back soon, he'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah, because the Earth is in a dreadful, dreadful state, and it's become godless. So, when the church age ends, according to the pre-tribulation view, the church is raptured sometime between now and the beginning of this seven-year period.

[6:28] The seven-year period is split into two clear three-and-a-half-year halves. The person who we all call the Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel at or near the beginning of this period, but in the middle of the tribulation, he breaks that covenant, and he puts an image of himself in the temple.

[6:55] And the last half of the tribulation is really, really, really even more awful than the first half. And then you have the second coming of Jesus Christ at the end of that period, and the period that the Bible calls the millennium, or we tend to call it the millennium, the thousand-year reign of Christ begins after the second coming of Jesus.

[7:22] So, that's just a quick run-through history, and you might agree or disagree with bits of it. I don't mind, by all means, discuss anything you disagree with. But that, I think, broadly expresses the pre-tribulation view.

[7:40] Um... Oh, can I just ask... Of course. The rapture... So, is the rapture the first return of Christ, and then the second coming is when he winds it all up?

[7:52] Assuming the pre-tribbers are correct, yes, but not quite. Because I thought this first coming was when he was born. Yeah. Yeah, no.

[8:04] Oh, right. So, in... He doesn't land on the earth. Yeah. During the rapture. That's... Yeah. So, Jesus does come, but he comes to the air.

[8:16] He doesn't come to the earth. And then he calls his saints up to be with him. So, the second coming, or the second advent, is where he comes back to earth.

[8:26] And that is a time of judgment on the earth, when he judges the rebellious Jews and a lot of other people, and wages war with the armies of the world who set themselves up against Israel, and all the stuff we read about in other parts of Revelation.

[8:43] So, are we kind of clear so far where we're going? Now, as I say, you don't have to agree with this. What I'm looking for is an understanding of the point of view, not necessarily agreement with it.

[8:56] We'll get to that in future studies. So, my first comment is the prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel.

[9:06] If you turn to Daniel, Daniel chapter 9. And we could easily do a whole evening on this one prophecy in Daniel chapter 9, but we're not going to.

[9:25] We're just going to use it to make a single point, which is this. From verse 24 through to 27, there is a prophecy.

[9:37] And it starts with this phrase, 70 weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make an atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.

[9:54] And it goes on. But this prophecy is given to Daniel, who is at the time in Babylon, and is, if you like, the main representative of Israel in the Babylonian captivity.

[10:12] Now, to set it in its context briefly, if you go back to chapter 9, verse 1, it says, So Daniel is praying.

[10:54] And he's praying. And he's praying at about 68 and a half years into this period of captivity.

[11:05] And he reads in the book of Jeremiah, and if you want to read it for yourself, it's chapter 25. He reads in the book of Jeremiah that the captivity is going to last 70 years.

[11:18] And he's at 68 and a half years, approximately. So, verse 3, So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek him by prayer and supplications with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes, and prayed to the Lord my God, and confessed and said, Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant and loving kindness for those who love him, and keeps his commandments.

[11:43] We have sinned and committed iniquity, acted wickedly, and rebelled. And I'm not going to read on just because that's another study. But Daniel, seeing that he's coming close to within roughly 18 months of the end of this period of captivity, is praying to God, and he's repenting on behalf of the nation.

[12:04] And he's effectively saying to the Lord, when's it all going to end? And then in verse 20, So he's praying about when's this, when's this thing going to end?

[12:44] When is this captivity going to come to a close? And Gabriel turns up with an answer. And the answer is an ambiguous answer.

[12:56] Because he says, 70 weeks have been decreed for your people. Now, that 70 weeks, I believe was a literal 70 weeks, 70 lots of seven days, from that moment.

[13:12] But in addition to that, the angel is prophesying not only 70 weeks of days, but he's also saying, there's an event going to happen in 70 weeks of years.

[13:26] In other words, 70 times seven years, 490 years. And so this gives us a date.

[13:38] And it's not one I'm going to major on tonight, but there's a date. I think it's 444 BC, when Daniel said, or Daniel was told, let's read it in this.

[13:55] The first point I want to make is this. Verse 24, 70 weeks have been decreed for your people. So this prophecy is not to everyone.

[14:07] And it's not to the church. It's to Daniel's people. And Daniel's people are the Jews. And if you try and fit the church into this prophecy, it all goes horribly wrong.

[14:19] Because this is not a prophecy to the church. It's a prophecy to your people, Daniel's people, the Jews. And I belabor that point, because it's something that crops up again and again, where you have to not mix up your scriptures between those that apply to Jews and those that apply to the church.

[14:36] So he says, 70 weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make an atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

[14:57] So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, 445 BC or 444 BC, thereabouts, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks.

[15:14] Now he's talking about weeks of years here. So it's 49 years, seven times seven years. And 62 weeks, which is 62 times seven years, it will be built again with plaza and moe even in times of distress.

[15:35] Then after the 62 weeks, the Messiah will be cut off. So Messiah was to be cut off or killed not after 70 times seven years, but after 69 times seven years.

[15:54] Sorry? Well, it's seven plus 62 makes 69. Yeah. How many have I lost so far? I lose myself going through this.

[16:07] I lose myself going through this sometimes. The point is that what was promised to Daniel or what God promised when he prophesied this to Daniel was that after 483 years from that decree, Jesus would be killed, which leaves seven years of history for the Jews yet to come.

[16:32] And so my first point, and by the way, all the points we make about, when in fact any of the, is that true? I think so. Any of the rapture views, a single point does not seal it.

[16:45] you have to, you have to gather the points together and view them in unison to get the scriptural confirmation of each view.

[16:57] I just happen to think this one has more confirmation than any other view, but that we can disagree about that later. So the Jews are still owed seven years of history aside from church history.

[17:11] And that's the first point, is that Daniel's 70 week is prophesied for Israel, not for the church, which is one reason and one reason only why I don't believe the church will be involved in it.

[17:26] Debatable point, I agree, but that's reason one. If we go to Revelation chapter one, so Revelation one verse 19, Jesus says to John, this is the apostle John, the same one that wrote the gospel and the letters of John, says, therefore write the things which you have seen and the things which are and the things which will take place after these things.

[18:01] So he's got effectively three jobs. One is to record the stuff that, what did it say? It said, the things which you have seen, then the things which are, and then the things which come next.

[18:19] So to reveal the things which are, he writes the rest of chapters one to three, in which he writes letters to the churches.

[18:35] And what's interesting about those letters is they don't cover every church in the world, but what they seem to cover is seven different types of church.

[18:48] And those seven different types of church you can find on earth at any point. You'll find some like Sardis and some like Philadelphia and some like Laodicea and so on.

[18:59] A bit of an aside, but there are many Bible students and scholars who believe that each church not only represents a type of church, but also represents a predominant church in a particular age of the earth.

[19:20] And I personally believe that's true. And the reason I believe that's true is because John could have recorded those churches in any order, but the order in which he has recorded them reflects the types of churches that have predominated at different stages of churches that have occupied the world.

[19:40] And if that's true, we are now in the days of Laodicea and certainly what I see around the national church is a very Laodicean attitude. And it doesn't matter whether you look at the UK or Africa or the United States or wherever, there's this Laodicean attitude and that probably deserves further explanation, but we'll do that as a different study because I'll be holding this up.

[20:05] Right? That's so what John unfolds during those first three chapters is effectively this is what the churches are going to be like.

[20:15] And then we get to chapter 4. So he gets, if you read chapter 3, verse 22, he who has a near let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

[20:39] And then you get after these things, so after what things? Well, I would have to say what suggests strongly to me is after the things of the churches.

[20:52] That would be my deduction. So after these things, I looked and behold a door standing open in heaven and the first voice which I heard like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me said, come up here and I will show you what must take place after these things.

[21:11] After what things? Well, after the things of the churches. So, I feel fairly secure in the fact that this chapter deals with what follows the church age.

[21:26] Now, there are loads of people who would disagree with that statement and that's fine. But the most obvious interpretation of that scripture is God is going to show John what happens after the things of the church.

[21:44] Immediately, I was in the spirit and behold, a throne was standing in heaven and one sitting on the throne and he who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance and there was a rainbow around the throne like an emerald in appearance.

[21:59] Around the throne were 24 thrones and upon the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting clothed in white garments and golden crowns on their heads. So, what we have to understand and by the way this doesn't affect the date of the rapture we're just looking at who was sitting in heaven but who are these elders?

[22:25] And loads of people disagree on who the elders were. Some people say they were angelic beings. I don't think they can have been. When we look at verse 4, 24 thrones and upon the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting clothed in white garments with golden crowns on their heads.

[22:51] So, these are white garments in scripture always represent the garments of salvation. So, these are I mean angels holy angels don't need saving and fallen angels can't be saved.

[23:06] So, these couldn't have been angels if they're wearing the garments of salvation. The other thing is they're sitting in the presence of the Lord. What is interesting is to me these have to be human and they have to be embodied human.

[23:21] In other words they have to have bodies. They're not just spirits floating about. They're sitting on thrones wearing garments of salvation. so they are real people in heaven.

[23:37] Now, as far as I know the only time that I can be sure of embodied people being in heaven is after the rapture of the church. Reading on, out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne which are the seven spirits of God.

[23:58] and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass like crystal and in the center and around the throne four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.

[24:08] And the first creature was like a lion and the second creature like a calf and the third creature had a face like that of a man and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within and day and night do not cease to say holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty who was and is and who is to come.

[24:34] And when the living creatures gave glory and honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne, to him who lives forever and ever, it's clear there that we're talking about Jesus, the twenty-four elders will fall down before him who sits on the throne and will worship him who lives forever and ever and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, worthy are you, O Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.

[25:09] Firstly, what a glorious scene. But these twenty-four elders, who I think we can fairly confidently say are humans, who are in heaven, and therefore I think post-rapture are worshipping God, which again makes me think that this is in line with the church, it's not really in line with much else.

[25:37] Now, there's room for disagreement on it, and this certainly doesn't reveal the time of the rapture, but to me this speaks of representatives of the church, and on this particular point, the majority of scholarship agrees on this.

[25:56] They might disagree over when it all happens, but they don't tend to disagree on who these 24 elders are. So we've had mention of the church up to chapter three, we've then got this talking about things going on in heaven with people.

[26:12] The church doesn't get another mention, in fact it doesn't get another direct mention, there isn't a scripture in the rest of Revelation that talks about the church, but in chapter 19 there is a reference to the Lord's bride, which is the church, but it's kind of at the marriage feast, and we'll look at that at some other point.

[26:37] Incidentally, the crowns that are, so when it talks about the 24 elders sitting on the thrones, the crowns they're wearing are not diadem crowns, they're not kingly crowns, they're stephanos crowns, which is a crown awarded for completing a task, or for completing a course, or for completing a race.

[27:02] So, they are crowned with crowns for completing a race. Again, unlikely to be angels, although I suppose one could, infer that angels have a job to do, and they might get a crown for doing it.

[27:19] But for the elders who are human to receive crowns, again, this has to be the church, and you know that hymn, casting, sorry, casting crowns comes from this scripture.

[27:38] So, we get crowned for completing, whatever we've completed, and we get to throw those crowns as an act of praise at the feet of Jesus across this glassy sea.

[27:50] And I can only imagine what that looks like in reality. It defies your imagination. heaven. So, that's what's happening in heaven. We also need to consider what's happening on the earth while these 24 elders are in heaven.

[28:09] Because, once again, the two groups are split. We have the bride of Christ in heaven preparing for the marriage supper of the lamb, preparing for the wedding feast, and so on.

[28:24] But what about the earth that they've left behind? There's a point that I missed which is worth going back to cover. Why 24 of them? And I don't know for sure, but in 1 Chronicles 24, the priests were divided into 24 courses.

[28:52] And the church, the church are, according to 1 Peter 2 verse 9, the church are a kingdom of priests.

[29:07] So, the 24 elders would be a suitable number to represent the priesthood of believers. This is not the same as the Old Testament priesthood, which had a different function altogether, but these are servants of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, who have served God and have been crowned because of the job that they did.

[29:33] So, while all that's been going on, on earth there appears to be an outpouring of God's wrath.

[29:46] There's a whole argument about when that starts, which I will cover another time. I might touch on it in a minute, just touch on it, but to discern when the wrath of God begins to be outpoured is very important because, well, we'll come to why because if I go into it now, then I'll be covering the ground twice.

[30:09] But in chapter 6 of Revelation, you see that, what you see in chapter 6, verses 12 to 17, and you have, prior to verse 12, you have the unlocking of the various seals on the scroll, each one of which releases some sort of awful thing on the earth, with the exception of the fifth seal, where it's a time when the martyrs who've died are being comforted.

[30:45] But in verse 12, this is when the sixth seal is opened, I looked when he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as a fig tree cast its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

[31:09] The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their place. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks and the mountains, and they said to the mountains and the rocks, fall on us and hide us from the presence of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb.

[31:37] For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand? So what you have there is all the people who are subject to the wrath realizing that that's what they're receiving is God's wrath.

[31:50] There is absolutely no doubt that that refers to the wrath of God. The debate is when the wrath of God begins to be poured out, and we'll return to that in a moment. But there are many teachers who use that verse in chapter 6 to say that a pre-tribulational rapture is wrong because the wrath is not released until the sixth seal is opened.

[32:24] So there's a... Whatever happens before that is not the release of God's wrath. That's a very... It's oversimplified is the way I would put it, but that's the belief.

[32:39] So I will just look at... If we go back to chapter 5, and this is why I believe what's indicated here is a pre-tribulation rapture, but there are many, many who disagree with this conclusion.

[33:03] So chapter 1 in verse 5, sorry, verse 1 in chapter 5, get your tongue untied, Ray. I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.

[33:21] And this book is a scroll written on both sides. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?

[33:31] And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it.

[33:46] And one of the elders said to me, stop weeping. Behold, the lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.

[34:01] So the lion from the tribe of Judah is Jesus because he also comes from the root of David. Those are his qualifications. So Jesus here is described as a lion.

[34:15] Let's read on. And I saw between the throne with the four living creatures and the elders, a lamb standing as is slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, and sent out into all the earth.

[34:29] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him who sat on the throne. When he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

[34:48] So this is obviously a great celebration that someone has been found worthy to open this book and to release these scrolls. And the result of it is that those elders who I said I believe are the church in heaven, verse nine, and they sang a new song saying, worthy are you to take the book and to break its seals, for you were slain and purchased for God with your blood, men, from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, you have made them to be a kingdom of priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.

[35:29] You've also got angels then, and there's another reason why the twenty-four probably don't contain angels, because you've then got a separate little passage devoted to the angels. Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads.

[35:47] And thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, worthy is the lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.

[35:59] And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying to him who sits on the throne and to the lamb be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.

[36:14] And the four living creatures kept saying, Amen, and the elders fell down and worshipped. So you've got this stupendous time of worship because Jesus has come and taken the throne and he is accorded by those who worship him power and authority.

[36:33] So then we get into chapter six. Then I saw when the lamb broke one of the seven seals and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, come.

[36:48] I looked and behold a white horse and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him and he went out conquering to conquer. So my first question is who released the white horse?

[37:03] And it was Jesus. And therefore whatever the white horse did that looks like judgment was initiated and given impetus by Jesus. And then we get to the second seal, verse three, and when he broke the second seal I heard the second living creature saying come.

[37:22] And another, a red horse went out and to him who sat on it was granted to take peace from the earth and that men would slay one another and a great sword was given to him.

[37:34] So who released him who gave him a great sword? Jesus. So whatever he's doing to me expresses an outpouring of God's wrath.

[37:47] God's wrath didn't, this is my view, didn't wait until verse six. It began at the beginning of the seals. Now there are lots of people who believe in what's called an inter-seal rapture because it doesn't happen until seal six.

[38:08] But the wrath of God, and this becomes important in a moment, the wrath of God to me was introduced with the first seal and confirmed in the second seal. Then you've got the third seal.

[38:19] When he broke the third seal, I heard the living creature saying come. I looked and behold a black horse and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hands and I heard something like a voice in the centre of the four living creatures saying a quart of wheat for a denarius and three quarts of barley for a denarius and do not damage the oil and the wine.

[38:41] This seal speaks of famine. In fact, there's a subtitle in my Bible that says famine and obviously the subtitles are not anointed. They're not. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[38:55] Of course. Yeah. And it kind of speaks of the situation we've got at the moment in a way or what it could lead to when you've got people saying you will own nothing and you'll be happy and they're the ones that are going to own everything and be as miserable as they are today.

[39:17] But that's a separate thing. The point is to me famine coming on the land is something that is initiated by and given impetus by the Lord. It's another aspect of judgment.

[39:31] Then in verse 7, when the lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, come. I looked and behold an ashen horse and he who sat on it had the name death and Hades was following with him.

[39:45] Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth to kill with the sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. Then you've got the fifth seal, which is the comforting of the martyrs.

[40:01] And it's a great study to do, but not for tonight. And then the bit we've already read about the sixth seal. Now, I guess whether you will agree with what I'm going to say next depends on your view of this, because you need to work out when the wrath of God is poured out to claim the immunity that is promised to the church.

[40:34] So, go to 1 Thessalonians 5. Remember, all the T's are together. 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus all follow each other.

[40:50] So, 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, the Apostle Paul spent a lot of time talking to the church at Thessalonica about the subject of the rapture.

[41:07] And we'll look at more of that in other studies. But just verse 9, chapter 5, verse 9, simply says, for God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[41:24] The purpose of getting saved is to be saved from God's wrath. If we stay in the same book and go 1 Thessalonians 1, verses 9 and 10, and it's all, it's part of, I guess you'd say it's part of Paul's greeting in this letter, but he says this, for they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you and how you turn to God from idols to serve the living and true God and to wait for his son from heaven whom he raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

[42:05] And where it says the wrath to come, the word the is the definite article, it's in the Greek as a definite article. So, when they use the definite article in Greek, it usually means a specific wrath, right?

[42:21] It's the wrath to come, it's a specific wrath, it's not just any old wrath, it's not general wrath or general judgment, it's the specific wrath to come, meaning the wrath where he comes to judge the earth, the one that prophesied the great tribulation, and we'll return to the books of Thessalonians to explore that more deeply.

[42:41] But, one other scripture, Romans 5, if you have a quick look there, so verses 8 and 9 really, but God demonstrates his own love towards us, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, much more than having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him.

[43:06] So there is a there's a presumption, a firmly founded presumption in my view, that the outpouring of God's wrath is not for the church to suffer.

[43:22] In fact, the verse that we previously read in 1 Thessalonians 1 verse 9 and 10, very specifically excludes the outpouring of wrath, which is the great tribulation in my view, that that outpouring of wrath is not something that we need to look forward to.

[43:50] So our destiny, I think, is established in the Gospels. We stay in Romans for a minute and just look at Romans 8 verse 1.

[44:11] Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Now, it's one thing, I hope you'll agree with this without me doing too much scriptural digging on it, because it's one thing that we got saved for, was we were sinners, we got saved from our sins to escape the wrath of God.

[44:37] And we were promised that we would. We had Jesus' righteousness imputed to us, so we became righteous by name, in my case certainly by name only, until such time as he takes me to heaven and makes this corruption incorrupt death and this mortality immortal.

[44:56] But there is no condemnation for those who were in Christ Jesus. Because, I put the word because instead of for, for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.

[45:12] So there should be no expectation, I mean, I might suffer discipline from God, and I might, I would certainly, if I preached the gospel the way I'm supposed to, at some point I'll suffer the wrath of men, and I've already from time to time suffered the wrath of Satan, but I should not be subject to God's wrath, because being saved precluded me from that.

[45:38] If we go to John chapter 3, and we have the famous verse of John 3, 16, but I'm actually looking at John 3, 18.

[45:58] Everybody will think somebody's fallen asleep in one of my sermons when they listen to the recording. He who believes in him is not judged.

[46:13] So he who believes in Jesus is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[46:25] So the default position for the sinful world is judged. And so we start with we're all going to hell.

[46:36] That's where we start, unless we believe. God and and so believers are taken out of that judgment and don't need to suffer the wrath of God because Jesus has already paid for that.

[46:55] So I think as we went through the seals, personally, I think every one of those seals speaks of the wrath of God being poured out.

[47:07] now God uses Satan. I mean, as you read right through Revelation, God's always, apart from at the end, where he comes himself and a sword is proceeding from his mouth and he's cutting people down, but he uses what looked to be huge, great, massive scorpion-like insects at one point.

[47:28] He uses men to judge other men. He causes men to make more against men and he decides who wins, who loses and how many lives are lost. But it's God who provides the impetus for that, so it's God's wrath.

[47:48] So, it's for this, the reasons that I've said so far, and there will be more, we'll discuss a lot more over a few sessions, but these are the base reasons, if you like, why I don't believe the church goes through any of the tribulation.

[48:06] conclusion. But like I said, not one of the points taken on its own is conclusive. But I do believe that as we go through more and more, we will come to a point where we can achieve a level of satisfaction that we've picked the right view.

[48:27] And if you finish up not agreeing with that, it doesn't matter, because one day we'll all find out, and we'll be so busy worshipping the Lord, we won't even go, no, I told you.

[48:41] But there is some typology worth keeping in mind. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, for example. God did not light the fires and then rescue his believers, which is what a lot of people believe with regard to the tribulation, which is said to be the worst time that has ever hit the planet, by the Bible, the Bible says that, then that time when literally all hell is let loose on the earth, it's even worse than all hell because God's bigger than hell, but it is a most awful, awful, awful time and people believe that God will rescue his people out of that.

[49:28] Personally, I don't. I think it will be like it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah, where God will take his people aside and then he will bring the fires of his judgment. Again, my personal view.

[49:40] We also have Noah's flood as an example, where Noah preached righteousness, nobody was listening to him. So him and his family were all packed off into a boat and were kept safe when the judgment of God hit the earth.

[49:58] And no one was spared in that judgment. Now it's a limited analogy because there is a remnant spared. I suppose you could say Noah and his family were a remnant in typology.

[50:09] By the way, the fact that God felt that he had to save Lot brings me a lot of comfort. When Lot is referred to as righteous Lot, it means I've got a chance.

[50:27] Because Lot, to me, Lot describes the backslider of all backsliders. And I guess it's not for me to say really, but if Lot can make it, if Lot can receive a place in heaven, then there's a chance for me.

[50:50] But in both cases, the people involved in being saved didn't suffer any of the judgment that was poured out. Unless you think of floating around on a boat for a long, long time, a judgment.

[51:03] Sorry? I wonder if they had extraction fans. No, let's not get off into that. So that's as far as I've got with tonight.

[51:16] Now we're going to, I said last week, we were going to look at that scripture in 1 Thessalonians. Is it 1 Thessalonians 2, verse 4?

[51:31] The one that talks about the apostasy if I got the wrong Thessalonians? Yeah, 4. Because that gives us a piece of very, very fascinating study.

[51:46]  And I will, I'm not going to get into it now because I finished at a reasonable time. voy voy voy voy voy voy